The Fall of AV123....

Regarding pre-pay.....

The motivation for pre-pay was based on three key motivators:

1. A cost savings (usually a discount off current pricing plus comments of future pricing bound to go up...or special finish, etc.)

2. A limited supply, get a low allocation number so you get an early shipment vs. one of the later ones which could be months later, etc.

3. First shipments will start by ________ (some holiday or date within only a few weeks).

Prepay was positioned as a short wait for big benefits.

Shipments almost always slipped month after month, supply once shipping didn't seem as limited, etc. Emotiva through AV123 was a good example. There bacame many examples of continued slippage so reputation should have pushed off pre-pays but at frist it seemed more like a good deal.

I have just stumbled across all this, I have been absent for a while, searching the buy and sell forum and that is about all.
I have so much running through my mind right now, but I need some time to sort it out and post my thoughts.
I will say I thought things were not going well for the company as of late but this just blows my mind.

Kurt -
Long time no talk, sorry to hear you got dragged into all this.

Jamie

Quanah wrote:Regarding pre-pay.....

The motivation for pre-pay was based on three key motivators:

1. A cost savings (usually a discount off current pricing plus comments of future pricing bound to go up...or special finish, etc.)

2. A limited supply, get a low allocation number so you get an early shipment vs. one of the later ones which could be months later, etc.

3. First shipments will start by ________ (some holiday or date within only a few weeks).

Prepay was positioned as a short wait for big benefits.

Shipments almost always slipped month after month, supply once shipping didn't seem as limited, etc. Emotiva through AV123 was a good example. There bacame many examples of continued slippage so reputation should have pushed off pre-pays but at frist it seemed more like a good deal.

I was in no way judging you or anyone else for prepaying...I understand the temptation. I just personally know that it would cause me grief. I also live by the rule that I will never loan a friend money. If a friend needs money and I have it and they sincerely need it...then I would GIVE it to them not loan it to them. Being owed or owing is just something I am not comfortable with and I try to not put myself into those situations.

kia303 wrote:Well I have been keeping a low profile for quite a long time .....

Kurt

Kurt,

Glad to see you around. I had forgotten about your raffle. Sorry to hear your dragged into this in any way.

Jack aka fmtrvt

Kurt, so good to see your name pop up again, but so sorry it is under these circumstances. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Thank you for the kind words. I am so saddened by this whole thing. The fallout from this tragedy, which is so divisively dividing our community, may be the saddest thing of all.

deleted

In a sense isn't the internet, including eBay, always "pre-pay"?

No, not really. When companies wait to charge your credit card until they ship your product, there is a brief duration - hours, days, maybe a week or so - between when the charge clears and when the product reaches you. Credit card companies have very useful policies for recalling charges in the short term. If the company ships you a box of rocks, you make a phone call and get your money back - even if the company is unwilling to take care of you properly. That's why it's wise to use credit cards for these sorts of purchases rather than mailing a paper check.

What the pre-pays and gift certificates did was collect the money one day and then delay shipping the product for weeks, months, or years. Those durations are radically different from the 24 hours or less that is involved in a normal online purchase. If I make a purchase today and ask my credit card to take the money back on March 1, 2013, they will shrug and tell me no. Their policies don't apply anymore because I waited too long to call. I have lost that recourse because of the delay that was incurred. I had to surrender that recourse and trust in the company to fulfill their end of the promise. If they fail me - if the product arrives with defects, or the final design doesn't perform as promised (UFW12), or if the product never even gets built (BMF, X-Plosive, Reference 200, etc...) - I'm just plain stuck.

deleted

As I understand it (and it's not something I've had to do so I may be off a bit on the specifics), the major credit cards generally all have policies in place to protect their consumers. Let's say you buy an integrated amp from an online company - say it's the new IA-1 from Acronym Audio - and they ship you a unit with a manufacturing defect. The feet are missing and you can't even set the unit up. If Acronym Audio tells you that it's your fault for losing the feet that they are sure they included, you call your credit card company up and file a complaint. The CC company calls Acronym and informs them that your card is being credited because they didn't follow through. Acronym then has to argue with the credit card company to try to get that money back. They don't want to have that argument, so they either give in and ship you some feet or they ask you to ship the foot-less IA-1 back and your card is credited back for the purchase.

PayPal has something similar, but I have less faith in them than I do the credit card companies.

mobileusa wrote:Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Here, here.

In troubling times like this, the words from an oracle of the ages will be comforting.

TooManyToys wrote:

mobileusa wrote:Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Here, here.

In troubling times like this, the words from an oracle of the ages will be comforting.

Does that mean he's old?.....

mobileusa wrote:

TooManyToys wrote:

mobileusa wrote:Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Here, here.

In troubling times like this, the words from an oracle of the ages will be comforting.

Does that mean he's old?.....

Geeze. I'm not sure I'm willing saying that, but does anyone want to take a bet if he remembers how to get back here?

TooManyToys wrote:

mobileusa wrote:Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Here, here.

In troubling times like this, the words from an oracle of the ages will be comforting.

LOL! Through this entire mess, I haven't felt very wise. I long for the day when we can get back to the music, movies, and the equipment.

I was just thinking about my youth. I can remember, specifically, how I felt when I thought of having the capability of actually watching a movie in my own home. It was an awe inspiring thought. Now, here we are, with precisely that capability. Amazing! No wonder I find it so magical.

Music is a little different. We got our first HiFi (it was monaural, but it did sound great), when I was between 5 and 10 years old. So, good sounding music in the home isn't as much a miraculous novelty as watching a big ol' movie in the home.

mobileusa wrote:

TooManyToys wrote:

mobileusa wrote:Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Here, here.

In troubling times like this, the words from an oracle of the ages will be comforting.

Does that mean he's old?.....

Absolutely

Ajax wrote:

TooManyToys wrote:

mobileusa wrote:

TooManyToys wrote:

mobileusa wrote:Ajax,
Glad to see you here and glad you joined to add your valuable insight!

Here, here.

In troubling times like this, the words from an oracle of the ages will be comforting.

Does that mean he's old?.....

Geeze. I'm not sure I'm willing saying that, but does anyone want to take a bet if he remembers how to get back here?

Absolutely!

HAH! I remembered how to get back here. UH............where are we????

atleast my mfw is fixed now...

scaring the dogs... *and their outside*

Matt

The problem with the pre-pay system was being lied to, not the fact things were being paid for early. There was no way MLS believed he could make those timeframes...he lied to people. For the longest time, people just assumed he was making poor estimates or whatever...simple mistakes. Nope.

monkeypimp wrote:

uw69 wrote:I donated maybe $300 to the raffles, which isn't much compared to Craig (tweak city audio). He donated a lot of manoey to a number of these raffles. I feel like a total fool for believing in MLS and his company.

I only gave $25 once and never felt comfortable but I wanted to help Derek.

As for Craig he was the smart one and always sent a check or money straight to the reciepient.

Not sure how he managed to send to this one.... maybe Craig was shiftered as well?

http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=21978

http://forums.av123.com/showpost.php?p=383169&postcount=12

I am finished with the whole thing. I keep finding out more and more....eom

I also earned a life time ban from av123 forum a few days ago...good to see some old names here and on audioholics....

I had over 3,600 posts on av123 forum, and had written a LOT of very long and detailed reviews on x-ls, music hall amp, the super pro 707 DAC, etc etc...
Just before I was banned i was able to copy the Music Hall review to post it on audioholics, but all my other posts must be gone from av123 now, and I can't access them anymore... pisses me off!

I spend a lot of time writing there...

oh well, at least I get to see a few of you guys still here, and on audioholics...

I still own x-ls classics and x-sub and enjoy them, but in a few days I will be moving onto a more genuine Onix product will post some pics on the "pics of setup" section when that happens...

it pains me to think of old times i had so much fun and discussion at av123 ...

You can say that again.

BUT, life goes on...

washburn wrote:
it pains me to think of old times i had so much fun and discussion at av123 ...

mobileusa wrote:so what's the deal with the LS4?...

I thought I remembered Danny saying that it isn't a true line source. That doesn't mean it won't sound good but I don't think it exhibits the same properties of a line source. That's the "technical" version though so I could dumb it down if you need me to

your avatar make me want to yoga...

mobileusa wrote:your avatar make me want to yoga...

It's quite zen huh? Its just a downsized wallpaper that looks pretty cool ...

I like it...it's peaceful...I think I'll go pick some flowers...

hey guys made my way here today stumbled across the site at work.

been mostly browsing the classifieds and missed the action the first of the year. i have some x-classics still and the rocket 850s still and really enjoy them and enjoy that i didnt buy them new.

ive been a member there AH and TCA. etc. since 8.08 and maybe sooner.

its really sad all these shenanigans, every one ive met and dealt with via these forums has been awesome . dwayland and i have done business several times and consider him an AV buddy, real drag..

thanks for the new forum.

s52e368 wrote:hey guys made my way here today stumbled across the site at work.
im carlp336 and ecm carl on other forums.

been mostly browsing the classifieds and missed the action the first of the year. i have some x-classics still and the rocket 850s still and really enjoy them and enjoy that i didnt buy them new.

ive been a member there AH and TCA. etc. since 8.08 and maybe sooner.

its really sad all these shenanigans, every one ive met and dealt with via these forums has been awesome . dwayland and i have done business several times and consider him an AV buddy, real drag..

thanks for the new forum.

You are very welcome. That is the very reason for the forum...meeting nice folks and making friends BTW, Derek is a great person!... ....but don't know about the drag part...

mobileusa wrote:

s52e368 wrote:hey guys made my way here today stumbled across the site at work.
im carlp336 and ecm carl on other forums.

been mostly browsing the classifieds and missed the action the first of the year. i have some x-classics still and the rocket 850s still and really enjoy them and enjoy that i didnt buy them new.

ive been a member there AH and TCA. etc. since 8.08 and maybe sooner.

its really sad all these shenanigans, every one ive met and dealt with via these forums has been awesome . dwayland and i have done business several times and consider him an AV buddy, real drag..

thanks for the new forum.

You are very welcome. That is the very reason for the forum...meeting nice folks and making friends BTW, Derek is a great person!... ....but don't know about the drag part...

dunno about him in drag personally i was speaking in ref to his charity thing.

did dude get out of jail ?


anyone else notice they are clearing out the ELT's, this seems to me like they a liquidating some assets. but yet they are releasing the volta ? i dont get it. am i dumb?

Don't know what to think.